Common Sense Question For Staff on Martin

Discussion in 'Football' started by IowaLawWasRight, Oct 23, 2019.

  1. IowaLawWasRight

    IowaLawWasRight Well-Known Member

    Most objective Hawk fans are puzzled why 4 star Oliver Martin, who had 11 receptions as just a freshmen at WR heavy Michigan last year, and according to coach Harbaugh would have started there this year, is averaging something like 3 snaps per game at Iowa, where the WR corp is much improved, but mediocre.

    The limited answers we are hearing from the coaching staff far indicate that "learning the system is a foreign language, so it takes time," and that because "Martin is learning all 3 positions, that adds to the learning curve." Huh??

    So here's a brain buster for the cerebral staff...if your goal is to have your best athletes on the field (unlike last year, when Max Cooper was playing ahead of Noah Fant in key situations, or countless other examples), and learning Iowa's very basic WR routes is "super complicated," why require your unquestionably talented but brand new WR to learn all 3 WR positions in his first 4 months on campus, while the guys who have been in the system for 3 years are focusing on just 1 WR position? Shouldn't that be reversed?

    I know I didn't get my degree in phys ed like Kirk, and I wasn't handed a $500,000 per year job in my 20s by my dad like Brian, but common sense dictates that you teach your brand new WR a limited set of material to ensure he can on the field as quickly as possible. The veterans on the team can play any WR position they want because they've started 25+ games and know the system. Teach the newcomers 1 position and maximize the talent on the field.
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  2. DonGately

    DonGately Member

    I think this is where the disconnect lies..."actual football playing ability" isn't always the trait most valued by this coaching staff.
    cincyhawk likes this.
  3. uihawk82

    uihawk82 Well-Known Member

    I think Brian make $800,000 and who knows maybe Martin doesn't run routes and catch as well yet as others in practice.

    remember D Willies no getting an audible and costing CJB a huge Int? maybe that kind of stuff which in practice we do not here about
  4. Fryowa

    Fryowa Well-Known Member

    This Oliver Martin thing amazes me.

    Hawkeye fans have seen 5 catches for 28 yards and a mention on a Jim Harbaugh depth chart and all of a sudden the kid is Julian Edelman and Copeland doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
  5. Fryowa

    Fryowa Well-Known Member

    How does anyone know that the kid is actually catching on?

    I mean I get the people want to see him play, but what’s the evidence that he’s learned enough?

    I understood the outrage over Epenesa, but at least there was some performance in the field to justify it.
  6. hawkeyes87

    hawkeyes87 Well-Known Member

    On one hand, OM hasn't done anything in his limited snaps that screams "I'm Flecking elite!".

    Otoh, as you say, KF has done things that scream "I don't care if we have a good offense or not!"

    So it's not surprising that the WR reps have stayed pretty close to what they were pre-OM.
  7. phdsvp

    phdsvp Well-Known Member

    There are two possible explanations:

    1. Martin should be playing and isn't because the coaches don't understand what talent is.
    2. Martin should not be playing because he isn't good enough.

    I just want to know which one.
    cincyhawk, Ree4 and SteveGarvey1 like this.
  8. MelroseHawkins

    MelroseHawkins Well-Known Member

    Well, Martin was with Michigan for a red shirt season and one playing season so had time to learn Michigan's offense and plays. He's been at Iowa for literally months learning an entirely new system. I don't think it's that difficult to believe there may be guys ahead of him that might be better at this point and understand the offense a bit better.

    Also, was O Martin really a 4* or was he really a 3*? We've seen players that go to Michigan that miraculously turn into a 4* right after the announcement they are going there. Maybe he was always a 3* quality WR.
    HawkeyeWalker likes this.
  9. DDThompson

    DDThompson Well-Known Member

    one of Da Haterz by definition is not objective nor knows the meaning of “common sense”

    But carry on
  10. Xerxes

    Xerxes Well-Known Member

    Most objective and half knowledgable Hawkeye fans know that Martin was never going to start at Michigan. The famous depth chart people here refer to in which he was 1st team on didn't include a few starters because they were injured and didn't participate in the spring. That depth chart also didn't reference the incoming FR that were highly recruited.

    I said this before & got blasted for it, but its very likely Martin transferred from Michigan for the same reason 95% of kids transfer for: lack of playing time. He didn't get much in his 2 years there and wasn't going to get much as long as he stayed.
    MelroseHawkins and HawkeyeWalker like this.
  11. IowaLawWasRight

    IowaLawWasRight Well-Known Member

    Melrose - while star rating is not the most relevant means of judging a sophomore, to answer your question, yes...O Martin really was a 4 ****, long before he committed to Michigan. He also had offers from the likes of Auburn, Oregon, Notre Dame, and his pick of blue bloods. In contrast, Nico Ragaini, who plays ahead of Martin, had offers from no one other than mighty Yale. Pretty different pedigree.

    Fry / hawkeyes - you use circular logic to justify the staff's benching of Martin. "He doesn't have stats therefore he shouldn't play." News flash: if he doesn't play, how is he supposed to get stats? What we do know is that in Martin's limited reps, he's been as productive as any WR on the team. He had a touchdown in week 1, just days after he was granted eligiblity. In week 2, he had the same number of catches as Brandon Smith, despite Smith starting and playing the majority of the reps. At the very least, that shows that "learning the playbook" can't be that far over the guy's head.

    Xerxes - your theory is that Oliver transferred because he couldn't cut it at Michigan after not getting enough playing time as a freshmen?? Uhh, as just a freshmen, the guy had 136 yards receiving and 1 td...most would say that is a trajectory straight to the NFL for a WR, given Michigan's history at the position. By comparison, at Iowa, where there's zero tradition at WR, Brandon Smith had 10 yards receiving as a freshmen and ISM had 187 yards receiving as a freshmen. Those guys were not competing with 5 star NFL bound WRs for playing time and still didn't have numbers.

    The whole "learning 3 positions" and "still learning the complicated Iowa playbook" excuses sound like crocks. If Martin was good enough to play early in week 1 and week 2, how is he suddenly not good enough to play against Purdue? He has ZERO drops that I can recall. ZERO fumbles. ZERO penalties. So what is it? He doesn't "block" well enough, a super important trait for a WR on a team that lacks an offense?
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2019
  12. SteveGarvey1

    SteveGarvey1 Well-Known Member

    The deal is, Michigan, Notre Dame and Ohio State, among others, offered him. Heck Urban even showed up at his house to try and get him to commit, I believe. That's one of the reasons for the disconnect.

    I think part of it is that Kirk and Brian are old school, Woody Hayes and Chuch Noll like. The other guys were here the whole time and Oliver went to where he thought there were greener pastures, to Ann Arbor. Now, Brian has inherited his dad's stubbornness and is going to stick with the guys who were here the whole time, instead of playing some guy who they may think felt entitled to come in here and start. Just speculation, I admit.

    Ivory Kelly Martin and Marvin McNutt have tweeted out wondering why the staff won't play Martin. A report I heard on the radio is that he's practicing well and pretty much knows the playbook.

    This is almost right up there with Kirk and Brian not playing Fant as much as they should have last year. Not quite, but same principle.
  13. Xerxes

    Xerxes Well-Known Member

    Or maybe the 3rd option is that he does have the talent to be in the WR rotation but he hasn't mastered the playbook yet. Regardless of talent level, Kirk isn't putting a guy in when there's a good chance he will make mental errors.
  14. MelroseHawkins

    MelroseHawkins Well-Known Member

    Valid point!
  15. HawkPrdatr40

    HawkPrdatr40 Well-Known Member

    Seriously? You can’t be serious! Yeah because Iowa’s Offense is SO DYNAMIC...Let’s get real.
  16. Fryowa

    Fryowa Well-Known Member

    Never said it was dynamic. But no one on this board has ever been involved in an Iowa football practice.
  17. uihawk82

    uihawk82 Well-Known Member

    Fans of all teams get on the Qb all the time not even thinking or knowing if the receiver is coming out of his break the right way or flattening his route too much.

    we saw too many short and behind the LOS passes the last 3 games. need two quick outlet passes on each play just in case and two longer routes.

    and there is nothing wrong with a 5 to 7 yard hitch pass on first down like B Smith was getting so good at.
  18. HawkPrdatr40

    HawkPrdatr40 Well-Known Member

    We all know what’s going on here, same shit just a different day. It’s the Same crap with Goodson,
    Ian Pike Hammer likes this.
  19. tksirius

    tksirius HN's Love Doctor

    What cracks me up is people think it takes more than a few of weeks to learn receiver routes in any program. I know some football players are dumb, but it's really not that difficult.
    hawkeye23, HawkU and HawkGold like this.
  20. dirtwrap

    dirtwrap Guest

    The thought that Kirk or Brian aren't playing OM because he committed to Michigan is ludicrous. Seriously. And to throw Goodson in there too? That is ridiculous because they are playing Goodson, a lot. They are going to not take the redshirt on Belton it looks like because he is healthy and can help the team. This staff along with pretty much any other staff is more concerned about winning football games than anything else.

    If anybody watches a Michigan game they will very quickly figure out OM was not starting there and his snaps would be limited. And what has he done here to show anybody that he has a skill set that is unique or better than the players ahead of him? On the other hand, b smith has great hands and size and has been here 3 years, ISM is fast and has been here 3 years, Nico has been here a year longer and has shown quickness and toughness out of the slot, and Tracy is playing not because he can catch but because he makes people miss in space. OM is a really good mix of all of that, but more of a jack of all trades and master of none.

    If you want to nitpick, I know of atleast one occasion and I think there were two when OM came in the game and immediately committed a penalty. That is just an indication that it hasn't all come together for him yet, the roads, nomenclature, chemistry, etc.

    Lastly, being a WR isn't all about getting the line call and running a simple route. There is blocking of course, we all know that. But above all is the variable nature of a play in reaction to a defense where they have to be in tune with the quarterback. We call it chemistry, but specifically it is 2 people knowing what the other is going to do within a split second, in reaction, and without verbalizing it. Look at Brady. He is very good yes, can make all the throws. But he has deficiencies too. Cant run mostly. Same category as Marino, P Manning, Kurt Warner, etc. Look at Edelman. Very good receiver. Not the biggest, nor fastest. But the combination of the two is amazing, because they know they can trust each other on each and every play that they read the same thing. Why does it always look like Brady throws to a guy wide open? Because they are and because the receiver, usually edelman runs his route where the defense isn't. That on-the-fly communication is deadly to defenses and indefensible.

    Now we don't have any dynamic like that, but, we are attempting to. OM just got here, he hasn't been around Stanley very long and you need a lot of time and reps to improve that phase. At this point, with Stanley a senior, it would be best of OM developed that chemistry with next years quarterback. It's why you see that a lot of times in football where the performance of a quarterback and wr are symbiotic, and when one leaves and the other on their own it suffers
    Ree4, haydensly, DDThompson and 3 others like this.