There goes Fleming

ssckelley

Well-Known Member
To those fretting over losing kids transferring out I have 2 names for you: Kyle Meyer & Patrick Ingram. Both were in the same recruiting class that included Woodbury, Gesell, and Clemmons. Not every player Fran recruits is going to work out and their are many reasons why some decide to transfer.
 

ArvadaHawk

Well-Known Member
He had a ways to go and yet I can think of one player who got minutes before him that shouldn't have and was the first guy off the bench for much of the season. No wonder he transferred, anybody would when they see someone playing ahead of them when they probably should be playing low D2/D3. Hoping for one more transfer.

If you are referring to Ellingson, I disagree with your assessment. Ellingson played well defensively. He played well offensively. He did not, however, shoot well from 3 and his primary function was to be "another" 3 point shooter at guard. Fran gave him as much time as he could to get his shot going, but had to pull the plug on his minutes when it didn't. But again, Ellingson played well in all other phases. He didn't commit turnovers, moved the ball well and actually was good and scoring around the rim. If his 3 point shooting had gotten on track, our offense would have looked much different.
 

drew003

Well-Known Member
You mention his great offers and then call him a recruiting miss. That's contradictory IMO. Some guys don't pan out. But that doesn't make them misses. He left his high school team to play at Oak Hill. Now he's leaving Iowa to play elsewhere. I won't be surprised if he's a graduate transfer and plays at 3 schools in 5 years.

Fleming never had comitable offers to those places. He was not a top recruit, and did not making any Top 150 lists despite playing on high profile AAU and high school teams.
 

Jjgoiowa11

Well-Known Member
If you are referring to Ellingson, I disagree with your assessment. Ellingson played well defensively. He played well offensively. He did not, however, shoot well from 3 and his primary function was to be "another" 3 point shooter at guard. Fran gave him as much time as he could to get his shot going, but had to pull the plug on his minutes when it didn't. But again, Ellingson played well in all other phases. He didn't commit turnovers, moved the ball well and actually was good and scoring around the rim. If his 3 point shooting had gotten on track, our offense would have looked much different.
Ellingson had several turnovers in his
limited minutes

He was also terrified when he had
the ball in his hands
 

Jjgoiowa11

Well-Known Member
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/team/stats/_/id/2294/iowa-hawkeyes

Ellingson had 11 turnovers in 27 games. That isn't a lot for a rs fr playing his first real minutes. But if we're still comparing Ellingson to Fleming, Fleming had 10 turnovers in 12 games.
Ouch, but in flemings defense I think he brought the ball up and ellingson plays hot potato.

I wasnt comparing anyone though. Im confused why we even recruited/signed some of these guys lately. I believe hutton was ranked high at one point but that was it..may be wrong. I swear we have 32 guards/forwards that dont have a true position
 

patmyne

Well-Known Member
Ouch, but in flemings defense I think he brought the ball up and ellingson plays hot potato.

I wasnt comparing anyone though. Im confused why we even recruited/signed some of these guys lately. I believe hutton was ranked high at one point but that was it..may be wrong. I swear we have 32 guards/forwards that dont have a true position

I view it like football. We offered like 200 kids last year. Clearly you have top targets, but you have to offer others in case...Fleming was an in case. Would you like it if a coach came in to your house and flat out said you can come play for me if these other 20 guys don't first....

And there was a post saying that Fran can't get a go to star....Iowa had their first all American in like 70 years. Come on ppl...

I hate message boards....yes I'm on here
 

ArvadaHawk

Well-Known Member
Ouch, but in flemings defense I think he brought the ball up and ellingson plays hot potato.

I wasnt comparing anyone though. Im confused why we even recruited/signed some of these guys lately. I believe hutton was ranked high at one point but that was it..may be wrong. I swear we have 32 guards/forwards that dont have a true position


Ellingson was recruited because he was an excellent 3 point shooter in HS and we needed that skill above anything else at that time. Was he our #1 target? I don't know, but probably not, but he was still an excellent HS shooter. Fleming was recruited to be competition to and with Ellingson (and others) because he, too, was an excellent HS 3 point shooter. Neither Ellingson nor Fleming distinguished themselves, this season, as reliable 3 point shooters. Ellingson had a year on Fleming to learn the system and he did and that is why he got the first chance to prove it on the floor. In my opinion, he did well in all aspects of the game, other than his 3 point shooting. Regarding the hot potato comparison, to me, he was moving the ball because his job was to be a 3 point shooter and if he wasn't open, he passed it, quickly. I actually watched to see if teams would leave him unguarded as an unproven player; but most did not. He was being guarded at the 3 point line and so he did pass it a lot. But he didn't take any bad shots. So, again, I think that shows his understanding of his role.

If Ellingson doesn't prove himself as a 3 point shooter, next season, then I think Fran has learned from JO and won't still with him in the rotation for 2 more seasons.
 
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HawkeyeWalker

Well-Known Member
Ellingson was recruited because he was an excellent 3 point shooter in HS and he needed that skill above anything else at that time. Was he our #1 target? I don't know, but probably not, but he was still an excellent HS shooter. Fleming was recruited to be competition to and with Ellingson (and others) because he, too, was an excellent HS 3 point shooter. Neither Ellingson or Fleming distinguished themselves, this season, as reliable 3 point shooters. Ellingson had a year on Fleming to learn the system and he did and that is why he got the first chance to prove it on the floor. In my opinion, he did well in all aspects of the game, other than his 3 point shooting. Regarding the hot potato comparison, to me, he was moving the ball because his job was to be a 3 point shooter and if he wasn't open, he passed it, quickly. I actually watched to see if teams would leave him unguarded as an unproven player; but most did not. He was being guarded and the 3 point line and so he did pass it a lot. But he didn't take any bad shots. So, again, I think that shows his understanding of his role.

If Ellingson doesn't prove himself as a 3 point shooter, next season, then I think Fran has learned from JO and won't still with him in the rotation for 2 more seasons.

Arvada just nailed it.
 

Tierney

Well-Known Member
Ellingson was recruited because he was an excellent 3 point shooter in HS and he needed that skill above anything else at that time. Was he our #1 target? I don't know, but probably not, but he was still an excellent HS shooter. Fleming was recruited to be competition to and with Ellingson (and others) because he, too, was an excellent HS 3 point shooter. Neither Ellingson or Fleming distinguished themselves, this season, as reliable 3 point shooters. Ellingson had a year on Fleming to learn the system and he did and that is why he got the first chance to prove it on the floor. In my opinion, he did well in all aspects of the game, other than his 3 point shooting. Regarding the hot potato comparison, to me, he was moving the ball because his job was to be a 3 point shooter and if he wasn't open, he passed it, quickly. I actually watched to see if teams would leave him unguarded as an unproven player; but most did not. He was being guarded and the 3 point line and so he did pass it a lot. But he didn't take any bad shots. So, again, I think that shows his understanding of his role.

If Ellingson doesn't prove himself as a 3 point shooter, next season, then I think Fran has learned from JO and won't still with him in the rotation for 2 more seasons.

If Moss and Williams are as good as advertised, he might not have much of a chance to prove himself. His shot looked pretty good as a freshman so it remains to be seen. I think he is a talented guy.
 

drew003

Well-Known Member
If Moss and Williams are as good as advertised, he might not have much of a chance to prove himself. His shot looked pretty good as a freshman so it remains to be seen. I think he is a talented guy.

Where is this misconception coming from that Williams and Moss are being advertised as good? Neither had other major conference offers, and Williams had to wait until spring to get his offer from Iowa. Williams finally got into the rotation, that was weak with guard depth, at the end of the season. Moss was the third or fourth best player on his high school team.

Both are have good size/athleticism combos, but this idea that they are future all BIG players is untethered from what we know to date.
 
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jjh4hawks01

Well-Known Member
I head that Hutton was doomed from the very beginning after we realized he wasn't smart enuf to grasp the material.

Also heard that Moss is the real hope here, and the redshirt was mainly because he got here late.

No idea on Fleming really. Fran probably didn't like his enthusiasm from the bench.
 

ArvadaHawk

Well-Known Member
Where is this misconception coming from that Williams and Moss are being advertised as good? Neither had other major conference offers, and Williams had to wait until spring to get his offer from Iowa. Williams finally got into the rotation, that was weak with guard depth, at the end of the season. Moss was the third or fourth best player on his high school team.

Both are have good size/athleticism combos, but this idea that they are future all BIG players is unthetheted from what we know to date.


You're pretty close about when Williams received his offer (I don't remember that timeline, exactly), but the reason he didn't get the offer until he did was because we were in hot pursuit of Charlie Moore. Some folks even had us leading. But then something happened and we went our separate ways. Enter Williams. Now, it's obvious Williams was a fallback, but go look at his videos. He has tons of potential and he's almost 6'-7".

Part of Williams' story is that he transferred to a different school to start his sr year, but transferred back to his previous school and really only played half a season his sr year. The kid has talent.

Regarding Moss, he was the 6th man, his sr season, on a team where (I believe, thought not 100%) all of the starting seniors are D1 kids. Moss has talent, also. My opinion is that Moss could have transferred to another school and been a starter, but he stuck with Chicago Simeon and was 1st off the bench. He's a slasher and a scorer and has good handles. He's all 6'6, so he could wind up being a good one. Go look at his videos.
 

ArvadaHawk

Well-Known Member
If Moss and Williams are as good as advertised, he might not have much of a chance to prove himself. His shot looked pretty good as a freshman so it remains to be seen. I think he is a talented guy.

I think there is flexibility. Ellingson needs to audition next season for the following season when Jok is gone (assuming he stays) and Moss (likely) is the heir apparent. He'll get his minutes 2 seasons from now, so he really needs to prove he's a legit high % shooter. You are right, I remember the handful of games he played as a fr before he shut it down to redshirt. His shot looked smooth and natural. This season looked like he was off balance at times (jumping forward) like he was in a hurry, for some reason.
 

Hawk5656

Well-Known Member
If Moss and Williams are as good as advertised, he might not have much of a chance to prove himself. His shot looked pretty good as a freshman so it remains to be seen. I think he is a talented guy.

I think Moss is going to be a good one but our guards were not good this year and Williams still could barely play. I don't know who is advertising him as good
 

Tierney

Well-Known Member
I think Moss is going to be a good one but our guards were not good this year and Williams still could barely play. I don't know who is advertising him as good

I'm pretty sure its not you that will advertise them as good. Fran likes to over advertise players, but I think they will be an upgrade over Clemmons and Gesell. Jok might play the second guard too. Ellingson might have a break out year next year with the added athleticism on the team. I'm usually overly optimistic until its proven to be otherwise. These guys should be fun to watch. Fran doesn't seem to play potential over experience. I enjoyed watching McCabe play, but he started over a future all-American. McCabe wasn't going to even be on an all conference team.
 

smhawk

Well-Known Member
You mention his great offers and then call him a recruiting miss. That's contradictory IMO. Some guys don't pan out. But that doesn't make them misses. He left his high school team to play at Oak Hill. Now he's leaving Iowa to play elsewhere. I won't be surprised if he's a graduate transfer and plays at 3 schools in 5 years.

Yes and no. It's normal to have misses, happens to the best scouts. But I was talking about not just him but a few that really havent worked for the best...

Trey Dickerson, Hutton, Flemming, Patrick Ingram, Kyler Meyer, Hubbard... In some ways Oglesby though he was a decent role player that hopefully Ellingson can develop into otherwise you can add Brady to the list. Not too bad in six years, But four misses in 2 years is a problem that gonna show in the win column eventually.
 

Bigtenchamp

Well-Known Member
Flemming... who really knows if he had what it takes. We probably will find out.

He wasn't heavily recruited by many.

I think he only got offers from Iowa, Vanderbilt, and UNLV
 

NikeHawk21

Well-Known Member
I think Moss is going to be a good one but our guards were not good this year and Williams still could barely play. I don't know who is advertising him as good

People who saw him make the most of his opportunities at the end of this year. People who are intrigued by his size & length. Jok wasn't really in the rotation as a freshman and he turned out okay.
 

Hawk5656

Well-Known Member
People who saw him make the most of his opportunities at the end of this year. People who are intrigued by his size & length. Jok wasn't really in the rotation as a freshman and he turned out okay.

True about Jok, I just don't remember thinking he was more of a question mark after his freshman year like Williams is now. I still think we need to find a graduate transfer PG for next season
 
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