Why doesn't (can't) the Big 12 play defense?

longtimer

Well-Known Member
Sure there is some offensive talent in the league but programs like Oklahoma and Texas who allegedly recruit great players give up a combined 100 points to not great teams! Does Texas Tech and K State score 50 on Clemson or Alabama or Ohio State? Or even Iowa?
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
Defense has sucked pretty bad due to no noncon and limited practice in both the NFL and college this year. 16 NFL teams scored 30+ or more in week 2 of this year which hasn't happened since 1970. College the tackling has been atrocious at every level and there have been a lot of breakdowns I've seen.
 

hawkdrummer1

Well-Known Member
Defense has sucked pretty bad due to no noncon and limited practice in both the NFL and college this year. 16 NFL teams scored 30+ or more in week 2 of this year which hasn't happened since 1970. College the tackling has been atrocious at every level and there have been a lot of breakdowns I've seen.

At the risk of stating the obvious...it's not just about this year.
 
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BryceC

Well-Known Member
At the risk of stating the obvious...it's not just about this year.

Not unfair. I think it's especially bad in many places though. That said, I think the lack of defense by the Big 12 is overstated. Some of it is I think they consistently have outstanding QB's on a lot of the teams. Some of it is scheme. Some of it is pace of play. Overall I think it's pretty overstated, much like the knock on Big 10 offenses.
 

hawkdrummer1

Well-Known Member
Not unfair. I think it's especially bad in many places though. That said, I think the lack of defense by the Big 12 is overstated. Some of it is I think they consistently have outstanding QB's on a lot of the teams. Some of it is scheme. Some of it is pace of play. Overall I think it's pretty overstated, much like the knock on Big 10 offenses.

Might be overstating things a bit, Bryce. There have been some good QBs for sure, but not much better than anywhere else. For ex: this article from 2019 has 4 from both the B1G and the big12 in the Top 25. One of those listed in the big12 is your backwards lateral TD boy. Scheme certainly plays a role, but bad tackling is bad tackling. Period.

https://www.yardbarker.com/college_...qbs_for_the_2019_season/s1__29747309#slide_25
 
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uihawk82

Well-Known Member
Defense has sucked pretty bad due to no noncon and limited practice in both the NFL and college this year. 16 NFL teams scored 30+ or more in week 2 of this year which hasn't happened since 1970. College the tackling has been atrocious at every level and there have been a lot of breakdowns I've seen.

So surprising you try to limit this to a discussion of this year. Normally you post some decent stuff for a clown fan. ISU is about the only team lately playing much defense in the Big 12. OU and Texas should be ashamed period over many of the last 6-7 years. The whole Big 12 is terrible at defense. And dont blame it on great QBs when the defensive backs play well off receivers and then defenses cant tackle a runner or receiver.

TCU used to be such a tough defensive team then they joined the Big 12. At first in the Big 12 they maintained a tough defensive edge but slowly the non-defensive sickness has infected them. Coach Patterson just has to be pissed at his defenses.
 

WinOneThisCentury

Well-Known Member
To me, the Big 12 has never had the type of pass rushers (other than maybe Oklahoma) that get to the QB consistently. If you watch...guys are able to get back there set their feet and wait for the deep routes to get open and make the deep throws...it's way too easy. In the other major conferences, the QB is under pressure much faster and much, much more consistently.

I loved Urban Meyer talking about what a great hire Chris Ash was at Texas as the D-Coordinator...only gave up 56 in regulation yesterday. Maybe Ash can get it together...but it was an alarming start.

The defense in the B12 is just flat out bad. Louisiana didn't have much trouble making Iowa State look pedestrian. Then ISU drops 38 on TCU on the road. ISU fans are now back to National Champion talk.
 

trj

Well-Known Member
The evolution of the sport, rule changes and safety concerns has geared everything toward offense. Even guys like Nick Saban ,KF and many others have realized that you have to be able to score points now. No way around it.

What blows my mind is that given the recruiting footprint that Oklahoma and the Texas schools have, they can't find dudes on defense to slow teams down, schematically or athletically. Iowa St. can put up 40 on you, wtf.
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
Might be overstating things a bit, Bryce. There have been some good QBs for sure, but not much better than anywhere else. For ex: this article from 2019 has 4 from both the B1G and the big12 in the Top 25. One of those listed in the big12 is your backwards lateral TD boy. Scheme certainly plays a role, but bad tackling is bad tackling. Period.

https://www.yardbarker.com/college_...qbs_for_the_2019_season/s1__29747309#slide_25

Miss St had 623 yards passing yesterday under a mike Leach offense against LSU. Does LSU and the SEC not play defense now? Those offenses are hard to defend. It’s just a different style of ball.
 

thetrza

Well-Known Member
When you watch a Big 12 football game, nearly every long passing touchdown will have a blitzing safety running in the exact opposite direction of where the play goes. They defensive coordinators each think that if the QB has time, he will pick them apart so a guy like Manny Diaz will blitz every down and sometimes it works but more often than not it doesn't. You see the safety coming from the opposite side of the play on television, literally every fan from home can see the blitzer and when they don't get home its always a big play.

Anyway, the ISU defensive coordinator is known for his rush two or three guys and let eight guys or nine guys drop deep into a zone. TCU picked it up in the past few years too. Their big win against Baker Mayfield and Oklahoma a couple years ago featured that set on many drop backs and the Heisman winner would scramble forever before throwing into triple coverage.
 

hawkdrummer1

Well-Known Member
Miss St had 623 yards passing yesterday under a mike Leach offense against LSU. Does LSU and the SEC not play defense now? Those offenses are hard to defend. It’s just a different style of ball.

First time you've heard of Mike Leach? His offensive style is what you'd call an "outlier" in statistical terms. Keep reaching...it's in the water up there.
 

WinOneThisCentury

Well-Known Member
First time you've heard of Mike Leach? His offensive style is what you'd call an "outlier" in statistical terms. Keep reaching...it's in the water up there.

ok...let's also point out that 9 of the top defensive players for LSU are playing for Pro teams now...and it was their first taste of Mike Leach. If he does this against other SEC defenses...then we can proclaim the B12 the greatest conference ever and ISU a grossly underrated program.
 

hawkdrummer1

Well-Known Member
ok...let's also point out that 9 of the top defensive players for LSU are playing for Pro teams now...and it was their first taste of Mike Leach. If he does this against other SEC defenses...then we can proclaim the B12 the greatest conference ever and ISU a grossly underrated program.

Much as I prefer statistics and data, sometimes the "eye test" provides a measure of validity as well. If you've watched big12 football... bad angles, poor tackling, physically soft lines are common (did I mention bad tackling?). These are all technique, talent and coaching related, no matter what offense the opponent runs. They don't show up in the box score, but they're difference makers.
 

BryceC

Well-Known Member
First time you've heard of Mike Leach? His offensive style is what you'd call an "outlier" in statistical terms. Keep reaching...it's in the water up there.

Leach got started at Texas Tech dude. That was the point. Schemes matter.

I will admit the Big 12 probably plays worse defense than the SEC and maybe the Big 10 as a whole. How much worse is probably pretty small conference wide. I would assume it's probably similar to how I think the Big 10 plays worse offense than the Big 12, but it's probably not a huge difference. Either way, we're talking about minute differences.
 

hawkdrummer1

Well-Known Member
Leach got started at Texas Tech dude. That was the point. Schemes matter.

I will admit the Big 12 probably plays worse defense than the SEC and maybe the Big 10 as a whole. How much worse is probably pretty small conference wide. I would assume it's probably similar to how I think the Big 10 plays worse offense than the Big 12, but it's probably not a huge difference. Either way, we're talking about minute differences.

I'm well aware of that...dude. ;) Leach's love affair with wide open offense began just down the road from my hometown. I know somebody who played on one of his Wesleyan teams.

Schemes do matter, so do fundamentals like tackling. Spin as you may, that hasn't been a strength of big 12 defenses (see my previous email). Style or scheme is one thing, executing fundamentals is another. Unless of course your defensive scheme doesn't place a premium on tackling the ball carrier, then I stand corrected.
 
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Fryowa

Administrator
Completely unwinnable debate by both sides. The arguments will always be, "B12 defenses suck because they suck at defense," and "B12 defenses suck because our offenses are so good."

Neither can be proven nor even vaguely supported by statistics because the conferences don't play each other except in bowl games and that's way too small of a sample size.

The only thing that might even be remotely supportive of offenses being overblown in the B12 is that out of 32 NFL teams there are only 2 3 Big 12 quarterbacks playing, and two of them won’t be starting in the league in three years unless it's for some bottom feeder graveyard like Cleveland. If B12 defenses were as good as Clown fans and other Big 12 people preach, there would at least be some QBs who could come in the league and gunsling. If Murray and Mayfield were the second and third comings of jesus like they got made out to be in college, they'd be tearing the league up. Especially with NFL caliber receivers.
 
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Xerxes

Well-Known Member
Completely unwinnable debate by both sides. The arguments will always be, "B12 defenses suck because they suck at defense," and "B12 defenses suck because our offenses are so good."

Neither can be proven nor even vaguely supported by statistics because the conferences don't play each other except in bowl games and that's way too small of a sample size.

The only thing that might even be remotely supportive of offenses being overblown in the B12 is that out of 32 NFL teams there are only 2 Big 12 quarterbacks playing, and neither of them will be starting in the league in three years unless it's for some bottom feeder graveyard like Cleveland. If B12 defenses were as good as Clown fans and other Big 12 people preach, there would at least be some QBs who could come in the league and gunsling. If Murray and Mayfield were the second and third comings of jesus like they got made out to be in college, they'd be tearing the league up. Especially with NFL caliber receivers.

3 QBs - Pat Mahomes


Murray is a pretty solid young QB that is very talented. I could see him sticking around for awhile. Arizona seems to be pleased with him.

Mayfield is actually having a solid year and being quiet about it. Will it last? I doubt it. We'll see.

Both are in the top 10 in QBR in 2020 so far though. That's better than I ever expected for either of them.
 
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Fryowa

Administrator
3 QBs - Pat Mahomes


Murray is a pretty solid young QB that is very talented. I could see him sticking around for awhile. Arizona seems to be pleased with him.

Mayfield is actually having a solid year and very being quiet about it. Will it last? I doubt it. We'll see.

Both are in the top 10 in QBR in 2020 so far though. That's better than I ever expected for either of them.
Correct. I had A&M In my head.

Point still stands. They’re underrepresented compared to the attention they get in college.
 
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